Hi,
How’s it going?
Let me ask you a question:
If I lie, but I tell you it’s a lie, am I really lying?
(I guess that’s a kind of If a tree falls in the forest and there’s no one around to hear it, does it really make a sound? Kind of question, huh?)
No, but seriously, think about that question.
Because Michele, who works for me? One of her sons, when they were little, actually said that to her!
Now, how do you answer that?
The reason I asked you to think about how you would answer that question is because I get a similar question a lot.
I get asked, “How can I tell if my loved one is lying?”
And here’s where it’s similar.
Many times, in a bipolar manic episode, your loved one may lie to you.
But the problem is, they may absolutely, positively, believe that they’re telling the truth.
So, are they really lying?
Here’s another way where it happens.
AFTER the episode.
Say, you and your loved one are talking about a situation that happened while your loved one was in their episode.
You were both there when it happened. But you both remember it a little differently.
You say that it happened one way, but your loved one absolutely swears that it happened another way.
You say that your loved one did or said something, but they fervently deny it.
Are they lying?
Or do they just totally NOT REMEMBER doing or saying it?
And is that the same thing as lying?
I have interviewed some people for my courses, and they have described this behavior in their loved ones.
I have also interviewed parents with children who describe this lying behavior in their children and teenagers.
Also, in my courses, I talk about bipolar disorder and lying, and that the person with the disorder should not “get away with” the behavior.
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But there’s a difference between lying and taking responsibility for what happened during your bipolar episode, whether you remember it or not.
That’s what you really want after all, isn’t it?
That’s what a lot of the responses I get are about.
There are a lot of angry supporters out there, whose loved one tells lies, hurting them (and others) with their lies.
And it’s not even so much that they lie, but that they get away with it.
That’s what makes these supporters so angry. That’s what made me so angry with my mom, anyway.
She would do all the yelling, manipulating, and lying, and I would get all the blame, and be the one left to “clean up after” her.
I hated that. And I didn’t think it was fair. It really made me angry and resentful.
And it hurt a lot. You may be feeling hurt, too. And the worst part is that your loved one goes along not even knowing that they’ve hurt you at all!
In my research, I found that it is very common that a person with bipolar disorder will not remember what they said/did when in an episode, after the episode is over.
In my courses, I urge people to not take it personally, and that’s why.
I know it’s hard to believe that your loved one is probably not lying to you on purpose, but ask yourself these questions:
Is not remembering what happened during a bipolar episode the same thing as purposely lying?
Is your loved one purposely trying to hurt you?
Or is it part of their bipolar disorder?
The main question is this:
Is your loved one willing to take responsibility for what they did during their episode?
Post responses below
In reguards to Lying and Bipolar disorder, I am of the openion that it’s like when a person is drunk, often they can’t remember the next day what happned the night before. The reasioning for this is, Bipolar disorder actualy causes chemical changes in the brain, as drinking causes chemical changes in the brain. Caused by illness instead of drinking, but a similar resualt on memory.
My wife with Bipolar disorder has this problem when manic. She kind of likes manic but to me that really changes my world, and I do all possible to help her avoid “manic” I don’t know if I or our marriage could survive another one.
Some times after I tell her what she said a few weeks ago, she states “I would never say something like that, that is rude”.
I am very thankfull she is type 2 rather then type 1, so the strong manic episode’s only come when medications are wrong, or when their are very strong strong triggers.
When the bipolar person lies to get money for one thing, like pay a bill, and then uses the money for something ‘fun’ instead, and still lies about it, what would you call that?
I’m glad you touched on this subject because it is definitely an issue I have to deal with, with my daughter.
I have a daughter and son. Daughter (as a child) and before diagnosis of bipolar would steal and lie and could manipulate our whole family. She would steal and would actually deny that she had anything to do with it. She is good at it and still does it. My son will NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO WITH HER AND HASN’T FOR YEARS!!!! It breaks my heart. She is in therapy and we try to understand her but it is hard.
I have a wife, who in the midst of her manic episode, lied, cheated on me, manipulated me and our children. She used the foulest language to our VERY tender hearted daughter and expected me to turn a deaf ear on it all. She covered for the bastard she was having the affair with and to top it all off they were working together to keep the ball rolling by discussing how they would react to any and all questions, accusations and investigations. This major episode has been over for a while but I get angry with myself for being angry at her. I know that it was the Bipolar but it still does and did hurt very much. I have a hard time with it. I never got an “I’m sorry” once. She also tried to kill herself twice and tried leave more than once. Its been a painful ride and I resent the episode and it’s effects.
One of the reasons I am on this site is because it so reveals what I’ve been living for the last 10 years (or more). My (soon to be ex-) wife and I are divorcing. She is diagnosed bipoar, has been thru outpatient treatment programs… and all I have done is defended myself against all of the absurd accusations and lies that she has created as she attempts to asassinate my character. I see her world of lies, not intentional, but as her mechanism to be able to face the world as she looks at herself in the mirror each day – her parrallel universe. Ultimately, she left a rehab program, filed to divorce ME.. And moved out last Christmas eve. Our finances are in shambles. Try selling a house right now.
The lies become her reality, she truly believes them. My biggest concern is about what she discusses with my children as we move forward. My goal is to present her to my kids in the most positive light possible… I’ll guarantee that she does not reciprocate. Anyone else out there going down this road?
i have that an episode is more often than not two different things to two different people. when talking to my mom during an episode, i fervently say whats on my mind and in my heart. after the episode she doesn’t remember what i said and or what she said. it always comes out different. it hurts that she seems to be lying and or can’t remember.
respectfully,
darkaqngel
Boy-did you hit on a very strong topic. My husband will do something totally irrational, and then turn the story around to minimize it. It drives me nuts, because I look like a liar-and he comes out smelling like a rose. Because people don’t see his manic side as much as I do (been married 32 yrs)-they think I am the one with the exaggerated response-not him. It’s frustrating as hell-and has me thinking that I am loosing my mind!
This has been one of the most helpful emails I have read over the last two years. I Know my friend does not mean to talk all the things he talks about and things he will say. And most part does not remember most of it. He will drink which makes things worse. I try and tell him not to drink. He will go several weeks and not drink. But then he will start again. Believe me ……….we do not live together and only see each other (for now) every few weeks. I thnk he does this to protect me. So he has a good heart when he is not in one of the episodes. I can tell most of the time. Most of the time I can ignore him and roll with the flow. But sometimes even now……..it will hurt something awful with things he will say. I want to know how to talk to him after the fact with respect to him and not to upset him. But to get him to understand what is actually going on. I thought about recording him or writting down what he is saying. Just alot of writting to keep up with him?? Thank you for all your important information. Have a great day.
I’ve been in many situations (nothing like cheating or anything) where I don’t remember saying something, because of the bi-polar and meds. The memory is shot weather I have an episode or not.I usually accept the fact that I probably said it more than not. I’m probably admitting to stuff I didn’t say sometimes, but I don’t feel like arguing over it so I say “I’m sorry I forgot” and get it over with.
Brad – I’m exactly where you are except my wife is 110% BP-1- One more manic episode and the kids and will probably have to have her removed from our our home.
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Marilyn – The symptoms of BP mania are very, very similar to a crystal meth high. I suspect that it can become just as addictive. The person in mania, like the high junkie, is not aware of the trail of destruction and hurt they are leaving.. They see only what comes in through the manic filter.
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They will also not see the solid wal that they re about to crash into
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There is a condition the doctors call anosgnosia – where the person is not just in denial but simply cannot see what they are saying or doing and of course they often ave very selective memory of that later.
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Is that lying? Yes of course – but unfortunately, unless you can tape it somehow, they will deny it later.
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The question is how we we deal with it. Just becase the person may have no control over their actions, do we completely excuse them from the consequences?
If I were colorblind, and another person were not, I would see red where he would look at the same thing and see green.
That person with colorblindness will tell me it IS green. That’s because he can only report what HE sees.
It does NOT make him a liar.
If, similarly, someone in an acute episode of bipolar symptoms is IMPAIRED for a period of time, sometimes they CAN’T, and therefore DO NOT see reality.
That does NOT make the person a liar, either.
It’s always been my take on these things that whether or not a person has these faulty perceptions because of illness, they ARE ultimately responsible for the consequences.
I think in this case, that is a very hard line to draw, and to stand by. But it’s important, even when someone truly is not aware of their actions at the time, that they do what they can afterwards in reparation.
This is a matter of self-respect, not just an issue of how their behavior might have hurt others. It’s all in the same picture, and this outlook helps the person regain self-esteem, especially after they have made mistakes.
On the issue of COMPLETELY failing to be able to remember events, this is an even tougher question. Again, I believe it is completely fair to expect and to want someone to make reparations for damages.
However, in this case there is a little more to think about. There are limits, if events are truly and completely forgotten, to what the person with bipolar disorder can do.
For instance, if I sleepwalk, and I clumsily knock over and break a valuable vase that does not belong to me, of course I can feel and show remorse to some extent. And if possible, I can even make reparations through money or replacing the vase.
But since I have absolutely NO memory of breaking that vase, how can I fully process 1) that it happened, 2) that I did it, and 3) how it affected someone else?
Again, no excuse. But keep in mind that if the person has a complete “blank,” they might not be able to feel or express remorse or other feelings the same way they would if they did remember the incident, how they felt at the time, and how the action affected others.
Responsibility is important. At the same time, calling anyone a “liar” is a strong word, and I don’t think it’s fitting in all cases. “Liar” is a really negative label for a PERSON, not for the action he or she did.
If my perception is off, I see red and you see green, or if I sleepwalk and break your vase, do hold me accountable.
But that is NOT the same as lying.
In other cases where a person deliberately cheats, steals, deceives–and they are obviously clear-headed and savvy enough to do it and get away with it…
Well, to me, THAT is lying.
Not that the PERSON is “a liar,” but that the DELIBERATE scheme to deceive is a lie. And all of this goes for all people, not just people with the label “bipolar.”
Everyone is capable of lying. And if any one of us does that, let’s hope someone else calls us on what we DID, without deciding who we ARE. (a liar).
If someone else is colorblind, but I am not, we will both look at the same color—I will say it is red, the other person will say it’s green.
I know I’m right, because I am not colorblind, but that does not make the colorblind person a liar!
Symptoms of bipolar disorder can, during acute episodes, impair a person’s judgment. That is not the person’s fault, any more than it is the colorblind person’s fault that he essentially tells me something that’s just not true.
In the case of complete memory loss, imagine someone tells you one morning that you broke their favorite vase in the middle of the night while you were sleepwalking.
Well, once you were in a clearer state of mind, you would probably believe them. You could feel remorse, and you might be willing and able to make reparations.
At the same time, because you did not remember breaking the vase, because it was not intentional, and because you had no motive to do it – you didn’t break it because you were mad or anything, you were just asleep.
In all of these cases, as always I would err on the side of taking as much responsibility for the consequences of your actions as possible.
Like the colorblind person, it is not anyone’s FAULT that perceptions are so clouded, that memory can be totally lost, etc. But it IS a responsibility to do whatever you can afterwards in reparation. I believe it is reasonable to want and expect no less.
To me, issues like stealing money, cheating, deliberately lying in a scheming, manipulative way in order to get something you want–
Well, shoot me, but I call that FLAT OUT LYING, whether a person with bipolar disorder does it or any other person in the world without bipolar disorder does it.
Sometimes people tend to attribute all kinds of negative behaviors or things they just don’t like to bipolar disorder because the person who does those things happens to have bipolar disorder.
People who are “with it” enough to establish and follow a scheme they design to hurt others in some way that benefits them in a dishonest way–well, they’re LYING.
I don’t think, IF IT’S AN ONGOING, manipulative way of being in relationships with others, that it’s the same as the kinds of untruths I see when a person is in an episode.
Still, also in these cases, I believe in the possibility of taking responsibility and changing dishonest behavior–people sometimes want to do that, and they do.
And in ANY of the cases I mention, I hate to call any person “A LIAR.” It’s something they’re doing. It’s not who they are. If you think about actions, they can CHANGE when the person is willing.
If you indict the whole person’s character, and just write him off as “a liar,” it’s less likely you or that person will see change as possible.
yes, how do we deal with it? I can over look the things my husband said to me during his mania. but I have a lot of resentment towards the fact that he spent a great deal of money and won’t even acknowledge that fact. also, now that he has been on meds for almost 2 months, he is quite cold and unfeeling towards me. is this normal or to be expected? should I consider my marriage as I knew it to be over?
When I have been in the midst of a manic episode, I don’t do what is termed here “lie.” I positively, absolutely, believe that what is my reality IS the truth. But, I look back and see where my position was being in a “delusional” state of thinking.
Delusions are the result of chemical imbalances in the brain, and cause the sufferer to believe outrageous, and sometimes hurtful AND silly things, to be TRUTH. My delusions were mostly spiritual in nature, though I had the delusion that my surgeon was in actuality, my biological father, and even confronted him with that “truth.” I told other doctors about it, and they just looked at me with that “look” that professionals get when they’re pacifying or condescending toward you. I look back and know that I hurt, not only this doctor with my “revelation,” but my adopted parents, too. The fact that I never “apologized” for this lie/delusion still affects me.
It’s so easy to accuse a person with bipolar of lying, when they BELIEVE their own reality. There is NO way you can convince them while they’re in an episode, that they are WRONG. It often happens that AFTER the episode, they WILL recognize that what they believed WAS a delusion, and was NOT the absolute TRUTH. I agree with Jane when she says cheating, stealing, and manipulating are behaviors that require facing consequences, and the ability to NOT do them while in an episode. But – delusions are VERY scary, and often can be paranoid. So – cut some of us a little slack in the “lying” department, and try to separate YOUR reality from THEIR reality as a delusion.
BIG HUGS to all bipolar survivors and those who love us. May God bless you real good. I pray for my country.
P.S. I have my brain MRI tomorow afternoon, and ask for your kind thoughts and prayers.
I am an individual with bipolar disorder. There are times when I have been manic that I have said things that are untrue. But I was not lying. With lying there is always the intention to deceive. I honestly believed, because I was in a delusional state,
that what I said was the truth. I was not trying to deceive. Therefore, I was not lying. I hurt people with the untruths I told, and later had to go back, explain what happened and tell them the real truth.
Perhaps others with bipolar do try to deceive and therefore, lie. But please be careful to distinguish between someone who is intentionally deceptive and someone who truly believes they are telling the truth as they see it. Thank you. Kelley
Occasionally he offers a shallow apology, sometimes accompanied by buying gifts for me. Usually it’s just like it never happened at all despite the fact that the episodes are increasing in frequency. I wonder if tape recording him would help or put me in danger?
Bart, I think you and I know the same person! Bipolar or not, I think there needs to be some accountability when someone lies to con people out of money.
DEar Dave
Thank you
Suzanne, I was just wondering how your MRI turned out. Wishing all a good day!
To KAREN: Thanks sooo much for asking!! The brain MRI was negative, meaning there were NO signs of any abnormalities. I explained on another blog that the problem is – my neurotransmitters are acting all “funny,” because of my mood stabilizer (I don’t want to give the name, as someone might think they have the same problem, which can ONLY be diagnosed by your shrink). I was switched to this stabilizer after the Lithium I took for 20+ years caused nerogpathy in both legs. My shrink is slowly weaning me off of the mood “drug,” and my tranquilizer, in hopes that the anti-seizure medications will stabilize in my brain and RELIEVE the horrible dizziness and nausea I’ve been experiencing for over a month. But – at LEAST it’s a START!! Thanks again for your concern, Karen, and God bless.
Suzanne, I’m glad to hear the MRI came back negative! It sounds like you and your physician are being very proactive about your symptoms, and I expect nothing less that fantastic results from the anti-seizure meds!
To KAREN: Thanks for your good thoughts about my current “condition!” Being dizzy all the time, hinders my ability to drive (although I DO do errands close to home), and is a BIG pain in the butt. My shrink took an extra blood test today to see if the antiseizure med is REALLY the answer. If it’s not – she’s clean out of ideas. Has anyone else had a spell of vertigo related to meds? If so, please respond on this blog and let me know how you handled it – PLEASE. I can’t go on this way – seriously.
I have a question about the subject of lying and not knowing…etc. i am at great risk of loosing the women that i love due to the fact that i have omitted and “lied” in our relationship. let me give you an example. i promised that i had gotten rid of old photos from my computer. tonight while we were goin thru some old photos laughing and having a good time, an old one popped up that i had entirely forgotten about. i imediattely erased it. but it was clear that the damage was done. situations similair to this have vastly compiled the majority of my “lies” and omishens. i am at a loss because this is truly the woman that i love and didnt try to hide things from her. i just didnt remember. but i believe it can cut just as deep. i would love any advice.